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Poster: Jim F Date: May 27, 2011 11:53pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: More Avalon Questions

Also, this whole talking about someone being heard saying "I thought we were gonna do Alligator..." thing got me thinking about that odd little show known as 8/22/68, particularly the Alligator>Caution.

I've always loved everything from that show, it's really a completely different style performance compared to 8/21,23,24/68. Though in my world that's a 4 day consecutive show run for which I don't think nearly enough praises can be sung. It doesn't seem to get mentioned as much when people talk about legendary runs like Fillmore West 69, Fillmore East 1970 and 1971. It really deserves more credit.

Anyway, I don't want to write 10 paragraphs of material on each set, I just wanted to say how I like the way they decide to jam on the Alligator>Caution jam on 8/22/68. Try listening to the Alligator>Caution's from the 22nd and the 23rd back to back. Completely different feel to them. The thing I wanted to mention about the 22nd is the jam after the drums following the Alligator vocals (which has a flub of sorts and Pig ad libs a line I've never heard any other time). If you listen closely you can hear someone say "Eleven," and they play the "usual" Alligator style jam but in 11/4 time. A strange sortof Alligator/Caution/The Eleven hybrid. Of course in 1969 we start seeing Eleven jams incorporated with Alligator's and Caution's somewhat regularly. But this is different.

I also have a theory that the 12/21/68 performance of Alligator>Caution had an Eleven tucked in, but we just don't know because the tape runs out during the drums, cutting back into a post-drums Alligator jam/pre Caution jam. To my ear, it almost sounds like they're coming out of the "2nd theme jam" of The Eleven before heading back into the Alligator jam/Caution.

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Poster: bkidwell Date: May 28, 2011 1:01am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: More Avalon Questions

Nice post! I really like it when people try to really dig into what was going on in the music in particular jams in a detailed way, I think your ears have found some interesting things.

I'm in violent agreement with you about the August shrine shows, I think they are right up there with the best of 68 and certainly count as one of the band's best series of shows.

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Poster: Jim F Date: May 28, 2011 11:34pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: More Avalon Questions

Ha "violent agreement," I like that.

I'm sure there are probably a number of us out there who could write novels about particular jams. I always appreciate the people who do take the time to conjure up long reviews filled with all kinds of metaphors and off the wall descriptive adjectives that I need to look up in the dictionary. I rarely have it in me anymore to sit down and spend hours and hours writing stuff and debating music anymore. But I absolutely love reading those kinds of things.

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Poster: light into ashes Date: May 28, 2011 7:59am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: More Avalon Questions

As skuzzlebutt mentioned in the fall '68 thread, it's certainly interesting that the band themselves were so unhappy with their playing at these shows, holding their let's-pick-on-Weir meeting afterwards.

Scully: "The music is being carried to a certain level, then staying there...you guys tire of music that has much more potential, many more possibilities, too soon. It never gets any better - it begins to get worse - too fast for the material, because the material is complex and groovy."
Garcia: "All you gotta do is listen to the tapes."
Lesh: "You can't really get but two or three of them on...I only like them with reservation."
Garcia: "The gigs haven't been any fun, it hasn't been good playing it, because we're at different levels of playing, we're thinking different thoughts and we just aren't playing together."
Yes, it's the Two From The Vault run they're talking about!

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Poster: unclejohn52 Date: May 28, 2011 4:18pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: More Avalon Questions - a query for our experts

Strange business here - I wrote the following comments based on what I heard on the soundboard version - but then went back to check other versions. They do not match! Huh? I think this soundboard is from a different performance!

SBD: http://www.archive.org/details/gd1968-08-22.sbd.koucky.gmb.92733.sbeok.flac16

This is certainly a unique treatment I agree - a very creative and energetic jam. Although I was unable to count the 11/4 time you mention ( I kept getting even counts) I did immediately hear a unique mix of jams. The one that jumped out early was that it was based on the Mountain Jam (first there is a mountain...) with an unusual closer - the set list calls it And We Bid You Good Night Jam - but I would call it the ending of GDTRFB, very up tempo. Cool stuff, and great drumming throughout.

When I listen to the AUD version - http://www.archive.org/details/gd68-08-22.sbd.cotsman.14915.sbeok.shnf - I can clearly hear the 11/8 Jim mentions. Totally different jam.

Can anyone solve this mystery?

This post was modified by unclejohn52 on 2011-05-28 23:18:32

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Poster: light into ashes Date: May 28, 2011 5:50pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: More Avalon Questions - a query for our experts

Actually, 8/22/68 has long been plagued with misdated tapes. I was fooled by my own tape for a long time til I did some comparative listening and realized it was a fake...

Anyway, the cotsman version is the real 8/22 Alligator.
The koucky version has the Alligator from 8/21 (mixed into mono, and with the drums edited out).
The jools version has just the 8/22 Alligator without the rest of the show.